Piecing Together Mental Health: Catherine Eagleson's Puzzling Journey with Bipolar Disorder

Catherine Eagleson was suggested to me as a guest who wanted to share her story about living with Bipolar disorder and also how she has created puzzling for mental health.

Catherine developed the Clue Detective Online Puzzle Portal  https://cluedetectivepuzzleagency.com/  ‘It comprises a range of crosswords, codewords, filmograppuzzles (cryptograms based on an actor and a selection of his/her films), sudoku and world building challenges etc. 

There’s something for everyone. Check out her blog each day for puzzling inspiration!

‘Annual membership is available to individuals for a small fee per year One can be a lifetime member too. It is also offered as an e-resource in a growing number of public libraries across Australia.

‘Once a member, one can access puzzles on PC, laptop or tablet, wherever there is a wi-fi connection.’

Catherine’s ultimate dream is for Puzzle Detective to be in every library in Australia, New Zealand, and beyond. ‘If it’s not available from your library, please request it.  Many library patrons who enjoy solving puzzles will reap the benefits all year round!

‘One gentleman once told me that my (codeword) puzzles save his sanity on the frequent long-haul flights he takes as they’re “the best way to while away the hours between London and Sydney!”

In this episode you will hear how challenging the brain with puzzling is great for your mental health.

Big thanks to Catherine for her time and bravery in sharing her lived experience.

Transcript

Joel Kleber: 0:02

So Catherine, thank you for your time today and being a willing guest. A lot of experience podcasts. Maybe you want to start with introducing yourself and what brings you today to share to share your story.

Catherine Eagleson: 0:13

Hi, Joel. My name is Katherine Eagleson. And I've been living with bipolar disorder officially for about 22 years. I think probably I've had it for pretty much since I was a child, I noticed or I experienced. When I was about 14, I had a very dark period didn't know what was going on in won't talk about it didn't want to tell my parents that I think that was really the start of it. The REALLY dark black suit, well, suicidal thoughts that I went through. When I was I think I was about year nine. And I had to, I traveled fairway to school. I actually attribute based And walk, walk every morning and I one day I was on had this thing for about three weeks and didn't tell my parents didn't tell anybody. And then one day, it just lifted. Oh, good, it's gone. And then, of course, it came back. So I think I had my psychiatrist dragged us several metric experiences. And one when I was 21, which was a fairly, very low point while I was at university had some personal issues. But it was tied in with certainly tied in with the bipolar, it really, really hit me. But the main one was, I was about to get married before. And I just had this past experience. And the I was engaged before and it was done well, due to the bad experience and the good experience that I remember the doctor at the hospital saying that they just collided and it was enough to tip me over just one massive panic attack, or if so that was just about and we picked it up probably because that were a bet. I was about to get married. And you know, it's fun when it's supposed to be you know, happy and joyful. I clearly wasn't so fun. And there's been I think it our family, there's been about four generations of mental polar related disorder and McGrattan suffered from it. So a grandfather was right on foot and said, she needs she needs help now. So now I was fortunate enough to get it pretty, pretty instantaneously, which was a I was very lucky.

Joel Kleber: 3:29

Let's talk about um, for people who don't know, can you just describe what Bipolar disorder is to you? Because it's not as there's obviously a common definition which people just think but maybe don't describe what it is to you. And because there's different types of it. There's bipolar one is bipolar two is both different types of it. So educate people.

Catherine Eagleson: 3:45

Sure. Why it started for me was obviously the blank blank thoughts that are mentioned. And with the final, I think it was probably at third. I think it was building up and building up. I was under quite a bit of pressure at work. And then we was one day, I mentioned that the two experiences colliding. I was sitting at home and it was like one giant panic attack. But the following day, I woke up and they were voice. It was like voices in the head. It was like and it was terrible, terrible stuff. Absolute rubbish being bandied around. And I just thought Oh heavens and then it was it was relentless. It just went and it was language on you know, swearing and bar language. And it was like a familiar voice. I knew some If you can't put your finger on the things really, it's sort of sound familiar, but it was, it was bombarding my husband to be it was just terrible. And I was I'd go to work and I just, you just couldn't get away with it get away from you. I was suffering from severe insomnia, I sort of be awake at three in the morning. And then I'd be awake at four in the morning. And then I pick it up six in the morning and go, and I felt like I was going to work feeling like a zombie. And, you know, snapping at everybody, and which was very, very ill and, and also the, the, the other thing I remember was that I just couldn't stop talking. I mean, it's quite normal, really, but you know, this incessant talking? Yeah. And the other thing that, that I've experienced over the years of my husband always used to say, if I was because you had your ups and downs, and I took me a while back, actually, I didn't diagnose bipolar, originally, that they did diagnosed it as major depression. So the the medication was quite different. And I kept saying Sarkar is one of these voices gonna go away? They will, they will, they will. And they didn't. And it was probably took about three or four years. And they got to the point where, you know, one minute I'd be, you know, quite elated about something. And the next minute, I'd be just crying, crying out of the bed, you know, in the space of about 10 minutes. And the husband, Alex used to say, I could always send him another one. So I always go with G's going down, she goes quiet, which is the calm before the storm. And I remember one day, we were at a cafe for lunch. And I wasn't feeling too great. And suddenly, I said to Alex, I think we need to go. And we go home. And it took about three and a half seconds, and it just hit. And I always and I always knew, I always knew the bar or so because I could hear distinctly it was like, a brick wall and glass, a glass, say, a wine glass or a champagne glass. Something very fine, just being smashed against this, you could hear the splinter that's coming off the wall. And it never happened with anything else. So yeah, so that's in a nutshell, Joel.

Joel Kleber: 8:14

And well, it's good to use those. Those stories to explain what it's like busy, I'm hearing stuff in my head because my mum was similar in gas, a lot of things and the stresses as well, you know, the stress is my mum always used to get, she got over stressed at work or something. She'd go manic all the time. So managing the stresses was always an issue for us. And I was gonna say the misdiagnosis is something I've heard a couple of times with interviewing people, and it seems to be happening quite a lot where they just go clinical depression first, and then it's actually bipolar disorder, which is a big risk, because, as you said, the medication is completely different from that to that, and then you have, unfortunately, years or of time where you've had to go through all this stuff, because the wrong diagnosis initially.

Catherine Eagleson: 8:56

Yes, that's right. Well, I remember actually going, it was, it was picked up, we actually moved down to the Bellarine Peninsula in 2005. And then I was sitting with the clinical depression diagnosis. And I went to the local GP and obviously went through my history and everything. And then one day says, you know, have you ever considered you might be bipolar. Overall, I don't know what that means. He's just well, you know, he come in here, I don't know whether you gotta be down there or up there from one from one week to the next. Because I used to see him quite a lot. And I spoke to in a you know, medical, modesty or whatever it is, is the the fact Darkness is Oh, no, no, no, it's definitely it's definitely clinical depression. Anyway, it wasn't until I spoke to was talking to a friend of mine who had, whose husband had bipolar very severely. And I happened to mention, I happen to mention my mother's or I'd said, you know, you're going to have to Marry a Millionaire, because to satisfy expensive tastes, you know, just in, in Job joking to impasse. And I mentioned this to Kathy and she, she was right on top. And she says, Be sure you're not bipolar. And I said, Oh, it's funny, you say that the GP seems to think back to Jesus, I'd be getting back in there and having another chat. So I did, and they put me on the bipolar medication and almost instantly, the symbol well, but they both have completely cured overnight, the symptoms were certainly very much improved. I'm in the roller coaster II type symptoms, when pretty much overnight. And I remember a they had the doctor was why one day and they hadn't logged into, or, yeah, she was in training. And I happened to happen to mention that via part that had been I'd been diagnosed with the clinical depression and bipolar. And hallucinations. She says, I'm surprised they even thought it was clinical depression, because auditory hallucinations are classic Bob. Oh, well, good. Oh, yes. So I mean, right at the start, I mean, I was saying that I was having these voices in my head. And I mean, people see be the medical people are looking at me strange labor. No, no, no, I don't think it's schizophrenia or anything. It's that sort of. I mean, I didn't really know. But I even remember, I even remember the GP and other GP, the one in nope, saying one day, I mean, they, she, I think she originally diagnosed clinical depression. And I was saying, you know, I was up and down. Oh, we don't want that. She says, we don't want you to be Banik. Hang on. I mean, if you've got to do anyway,

Joel Kleber: 12:52

and you tell people then how do they go through diagnosing you? Because if you say family history to them, you'd think it'd be a no brainer. Yeah, my mum's my mom had her granddad or had a dad with it. So it was a family history thing. So how did they can you just go talk to people how to actually make a diagnosis or something like that, just listen to you talk for maybe five minutes and use symbols, and then all of a sudden, I've got a diagnosis I have? What's the actual process? Well, I

Catherine Eagleson: 13:15

think it's, it's, I think it's more complicated than having people I think it's, I mean, it's human nature. Doctors can get a preconceived notion. And I mean, I look, I mean, I know the first GP I went to she sort of she's, she's passed over the family history. I mean, I was smiling and quite, you know, quite with I mean, I was saying a couple things I was on with feeling rose at home, but was was really quite dreadful. But it was I mean, whether there's a misunderstanding or a lack of knowledge about what it actually looks like. It's it's it's often I've I've read numerous times, numerous times bipolar is very hard to diagnose.

Joel Kleber: 14:24

What is yeah, if you aren't either presenting for a certain amount of time in a window, you might be hard for them to make an assessment so once you got your diagnosis, how was it for you after that was a something was a bit of a relief or something like Oh, Cliff with a plan of attack now or how was it since?

Catherine Eagleson: 14:39

Well, it took it took me it's probably taken 2020 2220 22 22,002 I was initially diagnosed. So it's taken Me and in our in the big bombshell came from the GP that I wasn't allowed. I wasn't led to, I was still advised to remain in a proper mainstream employment job. Okay. Well, essentially I was a liability, I believe the word was

Joel Kleber: 15:24

that they said to you pretty much

Catherine Eagleson: 15:27

well. I thought Well, this was when the entrepreneur, entrepreneur, jeans kicked in. And I mean, I wasn't, but at that point, I wasn't well enough to vote. So basically, the message I was getting was, you're not well enough to go back to work anytime soon. So I've got to do something. Which when I started dreaming up the crossword puzzle business, which is what I'm doing now. And I've been doing it ever since

Joel Kleber: 16:10

20 years in business is no small feat. And it's funny how they say, Oh, you might be a liability. Or you might get stressed out. And now you've been running your business would be long or?

Catherine Eagleson: 16:20

No, I think it's funny you say that because I was. I was writing, writing talk on on a Wednesday, and I thought here I was, in a secure, well, secure, stable nine to five job, public service. And I thought, I actually thought getting out and doing my own thing was less stressful. Not as stressful as well. I'm not sure how I thought that. But anyway, that's, that's how it's worked out. I mean, don't get me wrong. There have been many ups and downs. But again, it's not answerable to a employer. And heaven forbid that these days since COVID, I mean, I mean, they've got issues with burnout and stress and all the rest of it. Wonderful person with bipolar was hardly really upset the applecart I thought

Joel Kleber: 17:34

know exactly right. And I really annoys me hearing said Doctor would say that to you, because they should be working with I know, I've know a few people with bipolar disorder who run successful businesses and they might be going change really is there might be a time like, you know, maybe a couple of months, a year, or maybe every two years where they might have a bit of a bad patch and sort of go missing. But then they're back into it and why they weren't very creative, and very good people. And to hear that sort of happens to you. It's very, very frustrating that doctors and medical professionals rather than trying to get rid of hope would sort of say something like that.

Catherine Eagleson: 18:08

Yeah, well, I think I mean, don't get me wrong. I think the the fact that, you know, you can succeed in a, in a business sense is an I mean, it allows you to sort of you don't have have the you've got, you've got the freedom. And I mean, you're working from home. I mean, the irony, with COVID was that I was saying, I was saying to my husband, the I actually I'm actually grateful that I was diagnosed so long ago, because to be to find out amongst all these other people in the midst of all with chaos that I've got mental health issues would not be ideal. I mean, I just need we just sort of hunkered down during lockdown down on the Bellarine and just got on with the thing building the LinkedIn network. And it's, it's just really gone from there.

Joel Kleber: 19:17

And how do you use the strengths of your bipolar disorder because I know a few people who love it because it might give me extra creativity or work, you know, there's different things. So what what strengths do you take from from having bipolar disorder?

Catherine Eagleson: 19:31

Well, I think the I think, certainly the creativity but I I think it's poor. I mean, it teaches you things. I mean, I've Well, I mean, there's another angle to my husband actually passed away nearly 18 months ago. So it was his primary carers mill and I think Really, it's, it's with everything we've gone with everything we've gone through with, you know, me personally, with the bipolar and the pandemic, and everything, you realize you've got a strength that you didn't realize you had until you really need it. So I think what doesn't kill us makes us stronger?

Joel Kleber: 20:23

True? Very, very true. Now, how have you found? Have you managed your what's your? What's your routine with with bipolar disorder? Is it something where you're you do regular visits with your doctor? Or how do you manage how to how do you find

Catherine Eagleson: 20:41

on regular basis, I'm on regular medication, I'm actually on the medication they had, I was on one medication for the well, but what for bipolar? Clinical depression, but it was called effects or and had it had a weight gain side effects. That was very frustrating, because I've just gone and lost 30 kilos. And within about three or four months, I'd put back on 25, just as a result of taking these bliss tablets. But then, the doctor down on the Bellarine said, well, we can't help you. We've got it, we've got to get you off this. We can't keep putting on weight is going to be ridiculous, because other other health conditions like type two diabetes, and all those things don't don't distinguish as to how you put the weight on, doesn't matter if you've gone through it with antidepressants, or however, or whatever. So I had to be weaned off that. And for a while there aren't I remember saying to both psychiatrists in Melbourne, just to say are you feeling as well? To be honest, I'm feeling fine, she says is very good. She says, Well, we'll just we'll just see how you go. But she knew my grandmother, so Well, she treated my grandmother, so she probably thought she'll be back. And it was about four months after that. I woke up in a massive state of not so much confusion, but certainly anxiety about one in the morning, just like Groundhog Day. And it was all happening again. I thought no, this is this is not good. So I unfortunately, it was in the middle of between Christmas and New Year and the doctor was always the doctor, they get back and fall and we got to the psychiatrist and Jesus Well, now we know. So they put me on a new medication. And I've been on that probably for probably 17 years or so.

Joel Kleber: 23:14

Okay, well, that's pretty that's yeah, that's pretty good. Because I know with my mom, she had to change medication all the time. Because, yes, it's tough. So to be on one for 17 years is it's very

Catherine Eagleson: 23:23

big, at least our regular be 1617 years. 2006 2007. So I've been very lucky with the medication. And it's just, I mean, certainly and, and actually, in all that time, I mean, I know people who've been hospitalized I've never been hospitalized with so it's, it's

Joel Kleber: 23:53

that achievement actually up there

Catherine Eagleson: 23:58

is I think there have been the one or two times where I think I think should I should I or Alex's saying do you think you should go to hospital? No, no, you know, ride it out. But it's, you know, I've been very lucky in that regard.

Joel Kleber: 24:26

And you said something which I want to harp on so anything you know, many people realize but yeah, the medication with the weight gain effect. It's not just there's multiple medications with mental illness who unfortunately do that. And I feel really sorry for the people who have to be on medication because you're right. It's this weight gain thing and it's very, can be very, very with because it's very frustrating. You're eating right and you do an exercise and stuff and keep putting weight on due to the medication which you have to take which is frustrating thing. Yeah.

Catherine Eagleson: 24:54

Yeah. And then you might I think I've got two out of the three of the loving I'm have a white guy inside of a side effect. So it's a person, a drug company who comes up with antidepressant that makes you lose weight will be a very popular drug.

Joel Kleber: 25:15

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Well, it's not even just put, yeah, just has mutual effect. I think they've been put wide, I think it'd be very

Catherine Eagleson: 25:21

neutral effect to be good. Indeed,

Joel Kleber: 25:24

that was quite common. I did went through the signing my mom was the same thing. She had unfortunate the weight gain for the medication. And it was very frustrating for her when she was trying to eat right and to exercise and then it would happen, I think it's very common with them with managing a business. Have you found that with them with bipolar disorder?

Catherine Eagleson: 25:45

Oh, quite often, it's a barrel of stone. No, it's I mean, I've learned enough pool along the way. And that you really need. I mean, I've found, you mentioned before, you mean, you had you have actors where you just can't, you just can't do do it. And you think, Oh, I shouldn't be doing more. I shouldn't be doing this. I shouldn't be doing that. But it's been it's like, I mean, you're the boss. And I mean, there are lots, there are a lot of far more efficient entrepreneurs out there, that you're not answerable to anybody. I mean, you're not answerable to an employer or the public service or whatever. So. And you really are I mean, I've been on a disability pension for probably, I think it's trying to see probably about 15 years, I think. And you think, Oh, yes. Because this this server has has its peaks and troughs, but I think it's it peaks and troughs. with yours, truly. So whether whether that ever is able to be got rid of, but again, it's your is sort of the making call of that connection, really. It's a bit like a soft landing.

Joel Kleber: 27:32

And let's talk about your business itself. So your business is in crosswords, and you've, you've been some is that was that? Was that your passion? Or was that somebody in a creative outlet you'd be doing anyway? Without that being your business? So Well,

Catherine Eagleson: 27:45

I was, I was a keen crossword puzzler. And then, when I was thinking about what I was going to do, and I've actually been writing, running trivia nights, the yacht club that we belong to an object we belong to, and I had always had copious amounts of material everywhere. I said to Alex, what am I going to do with all this stuff? And it was at the time where we're all doing we were doing the H general knowledge crossword on a Sunday, which my family are very keen on doing. Omega ma had to go and go riding crossword puzzles. So I got the software and started writing them and then I moved on code words and, and keep around the book. So go figure to 20 years later we've been I've done is I've developed a because I was a librarian. By training. I've actually developed a an online resource that public libraries subscribe to. That's great. So I've gone from one side of the fence to the other. And well, it's really well certainly since the pandemic, Live Library subscribe. We've got one library down at St Kilda, Port Phillip City Council subscribe and they have a powerful club every Thursday morning, which is getting their older residents group it together on a Thursday morning and sit around with our heads solve puzzles for an hour and then they go out

Joel Kleber: 29:57

coffee. So is that the business you do? You go there and you run on these puzzles,

Catherine Eagleson: 30:01

but no, I don't be Well, I do. I had, I mean, I do go when required, but know that generally the library scribes, and they, they can actually put it on their website and, and the end of the library can access it can be in the library or it can be at home or on a park bench or in a cafe. So it's fully connected with Wi Fi and, and we update regularly and yeah, so

Joel Kleber: 30:41

that's great. And which which paper in your opinion has the best crossword?

Catherine Eagleson: 30:47

Well, even though it's difficult, I rather like the age crossword. Okay. Fun. Yes.

Joel Kleber: 30:56

And what's the secret to making you a crossword as you make them? How do you come up with the how do you come up with it? It's an interesting well,

Catherine Eagleson: 31:02

you can build the crossword the software, you build the software, the crossword using the software. And it's a bit like a jigsaw puzzle. You start, I actually start with the words I actually want us to do, you can you can just, you know, press the button and it builds the breed. But I don't do it that way. I do it manually. So I can use words that I actually want it. And then I research the clues using the dictionary or encyclopedia or Wikipedia. And the more the more interesting and devious, the better.

Joel Kleber: 31:47

I want to just touch on something real quickly. Now before before we go is about with the Mental Health Awareness movement. Natch. Now, do you pay much attention to it? Or what do you think about? Yeah, so what do you what are your thoughts on the whole thing happening? Yeah.

Catherine Eagleson: 32:00

Well, it's become it's, it's since COVID. It's just really exploded. I'm actually part of a number of different Well, I'm in Rotary. For about six or seven years I've been involved involved with Australian rotary hills. And I've been on the committee for two districts on currently the secretary of the year Melbourne district nine 800. So we're we're always looking to raise awareness and raise funds for me mental health research, but I'm also a an ambassador for a radio station in the UK. All radio, which is a big supporter of raising mental health awareness.

Joel Kleber: 33:00

How'd that come about? That's great.

Catherine Eagleson: 33:03

Well, last year, last year, I was involved with a group of English students in the UK and one of them became a radio presenter with said radio station with small radio. And one day, Charlotte says to me, how would you like to become a radio presenter? And I thought about it for a while. And I talked to David, the, the, the owner of the business. And I thought about it and because the thought was that we might have an Australian music theme. And then I really don't, I really don't think me I think I'm not. I mean, I can talk talk on radio I did on tonight, made spontaneity. It would be what I remember my sister when she was doing a journalism course would say DNA. So I thought no, I don't think it's for me. So I got talking with the with David, again, we decided we were going to market counseling, mental health and mindfulness. So that's what we're working towards at the moment.

Joel Kleber: 34:22

Okay, so talk more about that puzzling for mental health. What is exactly is that and what's in can you tell people about that?

Catherine Eagleson: 34:28

Well, it's really at work. Like a, I was reading an article in Psychology Today. Three or four years ago, and it said parceling is good for your brain, because it is engages it. So if you're feeling anxious or depressed or flesh, if you pick up on it doesn't have to be a puzzle, but just using that as an example, if you pick up puzzle and become engrossed in solving it. You forget about your the issue that was actually bothering you may not do it forever, but probably at least it gives you some respite. And yeah, so it's like a diversion tactic.

Joel Kleber: 35:24

Hmm. That makes sense. Absolutely. Makes sense. That would be something like that. And so is that what you've been doing as you've been trying to raise awareness or and then are you creating,

Catherine Eagleson: 35:34

I actually did a actually did a talk in Barzun while I was moving back to in the midst of moving back to Melbourne. Last May, I did a zoom conference in Toronto and listen ball, and was telling them about all this thinking, Well, it seems, doesn't seem like rocket science to me that if you ever thought of this great idea

Joel Kleber: 36:04

does make a lot of sense. Isn't it sounds like a simple idea. But I've never heard of anyone talking about before, before you're saying it. So.

Catherine Eagleson: 36:11

Yes. So and Well, the idea behind the libraries involve bringing people into the library, getting them out of the house. I mean, it gets them out of the house, in the fresh air and you know, talking to people social connection, they learned learn something that they may or may not have known before, and it's build social skills, then. Yeah. builds.

Joel Kleber: 36:46

builds a bit of confidence, I guess, as well. You're shaving

Catherine Eagleson: 36:50

theory. I mean, it's yes, it's all all

Joel Kleber: 36:54

stuff. That's great. And now just before we go, I just want to ask you a couple one more thing is about how do you what some advice or what have you found is best that's worked for you in regards to maintaining mental well being? Is it just a is a multiple of things? What some things that you do maybe that others might not? Or maybe they can learn from?

Catherine Eagleson: 37:13

Well, I think, Well, I've been thinking I don't do it enough. But I was just saying to my mom, last night, I last year, after Alex passed away, I did not charge which was which is walking or running, in my case walking to raise funds for melanoma. And I've been doing that doing a bit of trainings, I'm doing it doing it again. And I was looking at my Fitbit the other day and realize that I'm 35 kilometers during February. Oh, and I'll see I'm thinking I'm feeling I mean, I sort of had a bit of a flat patch over over Christmas had a bit on and the day before I think was yesterday I was thinking you know I'm feeling really good. I'm sort of instead of getting in the car I've been getting on the train and going to places so actually you know physical physical exercise and getting the endorphins pumping is is really a good is really a good thing and also at you've got to wait right I mean you've literally healthfully and what and the other thing I'll also mention that I discovered not long ago with a with a mental health food score. And certain things have a heart, the finger but it might sound a bit highfalutin, but things like lettuce and spinach are very good for for you in terms of mental health. And I discovered when I was eating quite a bit of lettuce and spinach, I was feeling it was about time allocation sick and I was doing a lot of caring for him. I wasn't I wasn't I wasn't sort of going down the bipolar track which would have been disastrous at that point. So yeah, finding finding the foods that yeah, Nike feel feel well, it's eating well and exercising is probably a good place to start.

Joel Kleber: 39:42

And what is it about those foods? Do you know Katherine, what is it in particular about spinach and lettuce? Because it makes sense but is there some like vitamin animals there's some sort of

Catherine Eagleson: 39:53

vitamin or something that boosts the Doberman or the serotonin or something like that. I'd have Have to go back over it. But I definitely remember that it was lettuce and leafy greens and spinach. I thought, well, that's not hard.

Joel Kleber: 40:12

It's a great point, isn't it? You didn't really hear much about it eating, you hear about eating for health, you know, so you know heart disease, wherever you may hear someone saying eating for your mental health. That's a really, really good point.

Catherine Eagleson: 40:24

So I, I just, I just googled it mental health food score, and it comes up with quite a few articles and at least so yeah, highly recommend that to your listeners. Yeah,

Joel Kleber: 40:39

that's great. I'm gonna look it up, because I've never heard of that before. But it makes so much sense. And yeah, maybe that's something we see in the future that gets mentioned a lot more. So Katherine, what's what where can people find you? So what's what's your upload your business in regards to?

Catherine Eagleson: 40:54

John called the clue to check puzzle agency? Clue detective, puzzle agency.com. And we have we don't actually at this point, we don't actually have a an individual membership, because we encourage we encourage people who want to do our puzzles to go to their public library and recommend it. Because that way everyone in the in the council, it's free access as part of their membership. Okay? I don't you don't actually pay for it. Like you just record being alive, the library scribe. Subscribe to it.

Joel Kleber: 41:38

No worries. So we'll put that link in the description. And hopefully people can check it out and jump on. Fantastic. So Katherine, thank you very much for coming on today and sharing your story. I really do appreciate it and the openness and it's great, great to meet you and hopefully our listeners got a lot out of it. So thank you very much for your time, Katherine, and I'd have a great weekend.

Catherine Eagleson: 41:59

You too. Have a good weekend. You too. Thank you. Thank you.